tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post1677575114718195295..comments2023-06-22T07:32:28.491-04:00Comments on Dred Tory: Thanking Outside the BoxSir Francishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-49878843812456349032009-12-31T19:58:11.097-05:002009-12-31T19:58:11.097-05:00Asking people to confront their own shortcomings a...<i>Asking people to confront their own shortcomings and biases, perhaps...</i><br /><br />...and their <i>drivel</i>. Don't forget the drivel.<br /><br />By the way, I've put away the soap-box. I'm standing on an orange crate now. Ikea had an excellent Boxing Day sale on them.<br /><br />Happy New Year's to you, too, Tomm. May it bring plenty of <i>Dred Tory</i> posts for you to love/hate. I’ll make darn sure it does!Sir Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-55389369815711568392009-12-31T19:49:00.074-05:002009-12-31T19:49:00.074-05:00Sir Francis,
Happy New Year.
Another entertain...Sir Francis,<br /><br />Happy New Year. <br /><br />Another entertaining post. I hope 2010 sees you in good spirits and ready to increase the height of your soap box.<br /><br />I can't pass the opportunity to comment on...<br /><br />"...you were graced, as was I...at Red Tory, with "Fill your boots" Tomm. <br /><br />At least Tomm never swears. Oh, no. He finds more genteel ways of being offensive--like being sanctimoniously, aggressively, consistently obtuse..."<br /><br />"Obtuse" is not my intention. Asking people to confront their own shortcomings and biases, perhaps... <br /><br />I still haven't read any Grant, but my New Year's intentions are good.Tommhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06072854015300215347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-4700456298558836232009-12-31T18:25:45.825-05:002009-12-31T18:25:45.825-05:00...the French-Canadian elite is rarely ever scathi...<i>...the French-Canadian elite is rarely ever scathing about its mass culture. </i><br /><br />That's largely because both entities are conscious of being engaged in the same project, I think.Sir Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-22434293144082749842009-12-31T18:08:05.592-05:002009-12-31T18:08:05.592-05:00When it comes to unwritten conventions and hard an...When it comes to unwritten conventions and hard and fast rules, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Mere conventions allow power abuse to occur in ways no one can predict and hard and fast rules encourage power abusers to look for ways to exploit regulations to make their abuse legal.<br /><br />There is simply no system that can prevent unethical people from behaving unethically. What should have happened is that Harper and his crew should have been exposed long ago. If we had the kind of media a healthy democracy requires, that would have happened. But then, I've been listening to what average "conservatives" understand and regurgitate, not what their duplicitous public figures have been saying. That's not what the media does.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-81741802838242848202009-12-31T17:49:30.362-05:002009-12-31T17:49:30.362-05:00...our system was setup to rely on tradition that ...<i>...our system was setup to rely on tradition that could evolve, rather than hard and fast rules...But now we are seeing the abuses that occur when limits are not in place. </i><br /><br />True, but our system was also designed under the assumption that its basic components would survive intact <i>despite</i> their evolution. Thus, Sir John A. could not have predicted that the office of the Governor-General would become totally impotent constitutional window-dressing.Sir Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-61401061163828569552009-12-31T17:30:38.733-05:002009-12-31T17:30:38.733-05:00Though how that would be achieved, I haven't t...<i>Though how that would be achieved, I haven't the foggiest.</i><br /><br />I can think of one way; stop cutting down your own. Ignore what doesn't measure up exactly to what the Americans, the British and the Australians have produced and concentrate on what is good about it; with encouragement people will continue to persevere and will refine what they're doing. Be more positive and tell the tedious colonised elites to <i>shove it</i> when they start bad-mouthing their own. As I remarked to SF a while back, the French-Canadian elite is rarely ever scathing about its mass culture.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-76343111029315878652009-12-31T17:15:05.625-05:002009-12-31T17:15:05.625-05:00On the contrary, I find that their appeal is gener...<i>On the contrary, I find that their appeal is generally rather complex. In fact, their complexity is their only point of interest, as they usually have no aesthetic virtue to recommend them.</i><br /><br />I don't think the opposite of easy appeal is <i>complexity</i>. More something along the lines of requiring prolonged exposure, dedication and engagement to acquire a taste for, which are the cultural experiences that have been most rewarding, at least for me.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-44298805498678669072009-12-31T17:15:01.015-05:002009-12-31T17:15:01.015-05:00Having been taught by (and listened to the war sto...Having been taught by (and listened to the war stories of) many of the “grass-roots” foot-soldiers of the Quiet Revolution in the ‘70’s, I've always felt that the Revolution was less about anti-clericalism than about the desire on the part of Quebec's intellectual élite to transform their society into an <i>authentically</i> Catholic one--one in which Catholic social teachings (which are essentially social-democratic) could take real, practical effect and eliminate the corrupting influence of American capital and its co-opting of indigenous <i>roi nègres</i> like Duplessis. Remember also that leaders such as Trudeau and Marchand worked from explicitly Catholic philosophical premises, Personalism being a particular passion of Trudeau's.<br /><br />Those were, I think, the motivations of a good part of the elite. Naturally, they had no control over where the Revolution would take the province as a whole. Trudeau, Marchand and Pelletier were ultimately aghast at the results, as we know.Sir Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-65181744037239336002009-12-31T17:11:19.732-05:002009-12-31T17:11:19.732-05:00SF:
I'm finding an intense parallel to our or...SF:<br /><br />I'm finding an intense parallel to our organic English culture and the current crises/predicament in Ottawa. I can't remember where I read it (Andrew Potter maybe?), but someone described how our system was setup to rely on tradition that could evolve, rather than hard and fast rules. The reasoning being that all circumstances are impossible to predict, and hard rules could do more harm than good in trying to predict the future. A political or legislative quantum affect as it were. The impact of observing/legislating affects the object being observed/legislated.<br /><br />But now we are seeing the abuses that occur when limits are not in place. And are paying the price for it. It's frustrating, as this is not how the system is supposed to work. But how we do we get it back?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-49441677751213032582009-12-31T16:58:56.482-05:002009-12-31T16:58:56.482-05:00I can never quite believe that your first (co-firs...<i>I can never quite believe that your first (co-first?) language is French, Ti-Guy, because your style in English is so felicitous.</i><br /><br />That's very kind of you.<br /><br /><i>But while we're on the subject, what is your theory about why the Quiet Revolution happened?</i><br /><br />I'm not a Québécois and am a little too young and see the conditions following the Quiet Revolution as simply how things are. I don't have much of a theory that would be interesting. SF is the history buff here. I find most history tedious in the detail and I'm never sure I'm being exposed to evidence-based history, or an elite or purely academic interpretation of the times. As we all know, elites are quite often irrational and mistake what's going on in their beautiful mind for what is the actual reality happening around them.<br /><br />Anyway, my opinion about the Quiet Revolution is that it was rooted in what has always been essential to French Canadian culture (and possibly the regions in France from where it sprang); its sense of place (you inhabit one geography and you're stuck with it) and its belief that what <i>others</i> think of you simply doesn't matter (by the way, the Gallic *shrug* isn't just an affection; it's a gesture to rid oneself of the physical discomfort that otherwise might lead you to continue in a pointless conflict, but I digress...)<br /><br />Anyway, the attitude among French Canadians is that a people's self-determination isn't something that has to start off with conflict. You simply assert it and dare anyone who opposes you to <i>wipe you out entirely</i>. Canadians are fortunate to be partnered with people who are not that interested in genocides or ethnic cleansing. The Quiet Revolution was simply an acknowledgement that French Canadian society couldn't delay modernity any longer and survive, let alone thrive.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-69766856063745237992009-12-31T16:54:42.518-05:002009-12-31T16:54:42.518-05:00...sometimes we are entirely too organic. We'r...<i>...sometimes we are entirely too organic. We're so organic that we don't bother defending that which deserves it...</i><br /><br />That's quite an insightful way to put the case.<br /><br />And I can relate to your perception of the Belgian cultural dichotomy: the Flemish are very much self-consciously "globalised", whereas the Walloons are equally self-consciously "parochial". Those positions are hardly monolithic, but that's how each tends to self-identify.Sir Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-34613049239019455872009-12-31T16:30:25.355-05:002009-12-31T16:30:25.355-05:00Your attitude strikes me as a bit too American
Ha...<i>Your attitude strikes me as a bit too American</i><br /><br />Hah! You're wrong! But I think we're actually agreeing with each other, just looking at the same object through two different prisms.<br /><br />Sir Francis and I (and if I speak out of turn SF, let me know) are more in tune in this area. While we are more organic and flexible, sometimes we are entirely too organic. We're so organic that we don't bother defending that which deserves it, if we could even agree what that is.<br /><br />I read from your argument that Quebec did prove to be too inflexible (but something it is trying to change, which I did not know) and that our culture is too organic, or subservient to Hollywood or whatever. <br /><br />Aside: this was what I found so striking about the Flemish side of Belgium. How American it was. Taxi's, personal cars, radio stations in the office all seemed to be tuned to American top 40. Any top 40. Announcers would talk in dutch, and then you'd hear 30 minutes of American pop. Weird mixes too. The most jarring was listening to Sly and the Family stone, Alanis Morrisette, Nickleback and MC Hammer back-to-back (yes I know two of those were Canadian, that's why I remembered the mix.)<br /><br />In a maybe cowardly fence-sitting kind of way, I'm looking at both lawns (flexible english and in-flexible french, note this is a gross reduction on either side) and saying both are wrong. How much each needs to absorb of the other I'm not going to say. <br /><br />Mayhap English Canada needs to adopt more Quebec like measures. Though how that would be achieved, I haven't the foggiest. As I mentioned earlier we're so flexible we can't even define what our culture is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-53316073027029770122009-12-31T16:06:34.232-05:002009-12-31T16:06:34.232-05:00I find the easy appeal of American cultural produc...<i>I find the easy appeal of American cultural products attractive (something SF would never admit, by the way).</i><br /><br />Yeah. I'm so predictable. ;)<br /><br />That’s not quite fair. I <i>do</i> find many American cultural products attractive--but not because their appeal is easy. On the contrary, I find that their appeal is generally rather complex. In fact, their complexity is their only point of interest, as they usually have no aesthetic virtue to recommend them. <br /><br />I remember my first trip to Disney World (or was it Disney Land, in Orlando?), when I was five or six. I couldn't assimilate the place. It just frightened me. It was bewildering; it was loud, ugly, and violent. I cried and whined for hours, totally disgusting my mother, who felt she'd wasted her money and who clearly found the place as unpleasant as I did (parents always inflict these traumatic experiences on their kids for their <i>kids'</i> sake) I couldn't understand why someone would willingly submit to being made to vomit on one of those idiotic “rides” when just taking one's hands off one's ears or tasting the available "food" was enough to trigger immediate nausea.<br /><br />Now, my reaction upon entering Baroque/Romanesque basilicas when on school-sponsored field trips to downtown Montreal was much simpler. I guess the Stations of the Cross, though superficially morbid, were easier for me to assimilate and were far more joyfully life-affirming than the sight of a grown man--probably a migrant worker getting paid minimum wage to sweat under the weight of a polyester Minnie Mouse costume--cantering down the street like a lame draught horse.Sir Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-62026289450018931682009-12-31T15:18:10.966-05:002009-12-31T15:18:10.966-05:00I can never quite believe that your first (co-firs...I can never quite believe that your first (co-first?) language is French, Ti-Guy, because your style in English is so felicitous. <br /><br />But while we're on the subject, what is your theory about why the Quiet Revolution happened? If it was not evolutionary and not top-down but rather quite spontaneous and quite grassroots, perhaps hope remains for various promised lands (shuffling off of consumerism, end of mass consciousness, etc. etc.).Jack Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06835284930543793029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-9218839227349467102009-12-31T14:55:38.883-05:002009-12-31T14:55:38.883-05:00I just see these as examples as inflexible and ino...<i>I just see these as examples as inflexible and inorganic responses.</i><br /><br />I believe this impression is entirely mistaken. The reason a lot of people want to maintain their culture, is that, quite often, it is <i>objectively</i> better in some respects than what is competing with it.<br /><br />Where Quebec was inflexible in its language policies was the lack of resources it provided to help integrate newcomers, but that was only for a short period while the furore died down and people adjusted to a new reality or simply left the province (something the separatists actually wanted, to their eternal shame). Immigrants who are not prepared to integrate (as they are required to elsewhere in Canada by doing nothing much else but learning the common language) can also choose to live elsewhere.<br /><br />Your attitude strikes me as a bit too American, an attitude that assumes one's own culture, way of living and doing business is simply the most natural (or organic) and that everyone else is just delaying the inevitable. It never allows for the possibility that a lot of people find the American way of life, in many respects (but not all), unpleasant or unappealing. It fact, Americans are quite often startled and very hostile to that suggestion.<br /><br />I find the easy appeal of American cultural products attractive (something SF would never admit, by the way). It doesn't take much time or work or background information to acquire a taste for a block buster, or for pop music, or for a Disneyfied museum or for their cuisine and one can practically always guarantee a relatively satisfying experience. But that kind of living has its drawbacks as well; it's unchallenging, it's conformist, it shuts out truly novel experiences that emerge at the edges of culture, it encourages passivity, sloth and discourages critical thinking and reflection. It's also extremely dependent on material goods, without which, there is practically no 'culture' to speak of at all. But worst of all, it prevents alternatives from competing because it's also rather easy and inexpensive to replicate.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-79017247394209779952009-12-31T14:00:50.546-05:002009-12-31T14:00:50.546-05:00Not a lot, I admit that. The observations I'v...Not a lot, I admit that. The observations I've been able to make as an outsider indicates a defensive stance towards maintaining a cultural status quo. I am not arguing that there are not justified reasons for this reaction. I just see these as examples as inflexible and inorganic responses.<br /><br />Long term I believe it to be an unwinnable proposition. Time will tell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-74883760757173089572009-12-31T12:23:32.972-05:002009-12-31T12:23:32.972-05:00What's the total amount of time you've spe...What's the total amount of time you've spent in Belgium and Québec/French Canada, Catelli?<br /><br />Bilingual people are generally more outgoing, kindly-disposed to strangers and find different cultures fascinating (not scary), since those are the qualities that motivate second-language learning. Historically, the Flemish, who had lower socio-economic status in Belgium were the ones who *had* to be bilingual (French-Dutch). Since the 60's, that situation has reversed and the transition hasn't gone very well. The Wallons have not adjusted very well to their diminished status and the Flemish have been indifferent, bordering on vindictive now that they're more economically and demographically powerful. The loss of conciliation in the country has been unfortunate. The issue of speaking English is something else altogether. Everyone involved in business these days speaks English and for Dutch speakers, it's a relatively easy language to learn.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-71590557737975035282009-12-31T11:22:49.638-05:002009-12-31T11:22:49.638-05:00Well, do dolphins seek out the company of sharks?
...<i>Well, do dolphins seek out the company of sharks?</i><br /><br />Call me a dolphin. Very much aware of the sharks that circle around this blog. I ain't going to tell you (or any of the other regulars here to F off!) heh. Not that anyone has earned it. Yet. 8)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-9613942536428435172009-12-31T11:19:32.375-05:002009-12-31T11:19:32.375-05:00We're also have different definitions of refor...We're also have different definitions of reform. I see Quebec's change to an urban secular society as evolutionary. It was reforming, true, and there was even a crises to precipitate it. However since it was form the bottom up, social change I don't see it as abrupt imposed reform, especially at the political levels.<br /><br />Crucial American needs for reform (and the current Canadian need for reform) exist at the political level. Both systems (in different ways) are consolidating unaccountable power to the highest offices. Changes to those systems are what occur to me when I think of a "reform".<br /><br />There is also an attitude in the population that needs change, especially in light of the demands climate change is and will place on us. Unconsciously, we are choosing a gradual evolutionary approach to this. A process that many (including myself) believe will take too long to be effective. We can choose to impose abrupt reform now (through legislation and social pressures to redefine social norms) or wait to have to reactively change (due to environmental changes that cause our current model of sustainability to collapse). <br /><br />Though its not a apples to apples comparison, changes due to the Quiet Revolution were generated from within, the Great Depression imposed from without.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-91001435477047340282009-12-31T10:50:54.001-05:002009-12-31T10:50:54.001-05:00I was referring to the rigid attempts to control c...I was referring to the rigid attempts to control culture and language with in Quebec. It appears that they believe culture stasis can be maintained, that the natural evolution of culture can be stopped.<br /><br />In my too brief recent visit to Belgium (too brief as in not enough time to cement the following impression) I believe I saw this difference between the Dutch and French sides. The Dutch are more easy going and comfortable in Dutch, English and French. They handle the intersection of cultures with aplomb and switch back and forth with relative ease. The French appeared to be more restrained(?) and locked into their culture.<br /><br />How astute an observation that is, I don't know. My own preconceptions probably had a large part in that conclusion. But I do believe that there was a distinct difference in how each group handled individuals outside their native culture/upbringing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-81888732866316818692009-12-31T00:57:03.887-05:002009-12-31T00:57:03.887-05:00...you were graced, as was I...at Red Tory, with &...<i>...you were graced, as was I...at Red Tory, with "Fill your boots" Tomm. </i><br /><br />At least Tomm never swears. Oh, no. He finds more genteel ways of being offensive--like being sanctimoniously, aggressively, consistently obtuse.<br /><br /><i>Red Tory</i> used to be a far rougher and more troll-ridden place than it is now. I wrote my first comment there a little more than two years ago, in response to which a now-defunct neocon knuckle-walker called "Canadian Sentinel" invited me to go down to the local free injection site and hand out needles to crack junkies--and that was in answer to a fairly mild, politely stated observation. <br /><br /><i>I am surprised...that more Stephen Harper cheerleaders have not tried to swarm your blog. </i><br /><br />Well, do dolphins seek out the company of sharks?Sir Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-49241308677536840852009-12-30T22:10:04.932-05:002009-12-30T22:10:04.932-05:00Here we are at twenty comments, and not a single &...<i>Here we are at twenty comments, and not a single "Fuck you, asshole" or equivalent has been deemed necessary. </i><br /><br />Though, you were graced, as was I when it was only my second or third comment at Red Tory, with "Fill your boots" Tomm. I like to think of it as a badge of honour. I am surprised, with your commenting over at Macleans, that more Stephen Harper cheerleaders have not tried to swarm your blog. I used to comment over there, but I just got tired of it. <br /><br /><i>I was actually shocked to read the Sibley piece that Dawg ripped apart </i><br /><br />I think Dawg did a good illustration of the cunningness of some of these commentators in that after piling on disparate premise after another, they attempt to shift into constructing an anti-Western Other upon which it would be easy to assail. To the average reader, that type of logical reasoning is unnoticeable perhaps even subtle, and since it plays into common memes wrt The War of Terra, it easily becomes embedded in the general discourse. I somehow get the feeling that Daniel Dennett is writing another book somewhere. This clash of civilizations effectively eliminates any complexity in discussing this issue; it is almost a form of 'disruptive selection': only two real average positions are viable, anything in between is selected out. The question is whether or not this model has reached its zenith yet. I say it hasn't, but it is becoming darn effective at marginalizing any innovative insight.jkghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11880292652098338341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-67063901149743780912009-12-30T12:05:54.638-05:002009-12-30T12:05:54.638-05:00Burke diagnosed the problem in 1796.Burke diagnosed the problem in 1796.Aeneas the Youngerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235737108817968315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-3531604982463978202009-12-30T00:08:50.547-05:002009-12-30T00:08:50.547-05:00Quebec transformed from a religious...society to a...<i>Quebec transformed from a religious...society to a secular, liberal, urban one in just a few decades... </i><br /><br />...by following the thoroughly <i>Jesuitical</i> (and quasi-Dominican) principles that had informed the ethos of their elite for generations. There’s nothing inorganic about that.<br /><br />There was hardly a senior member of the secularising Lesage/Bourassa/Lévesque cabinets who wasn’t an avowed disciple of l’abbé Groulx.Sir Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052750849770350973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260545195755894149.post-37470245104089099312009-12-29T23:29:17.831-05:002009-12-29T23:29:17.831-05:00Speaking of Inflexible Unorganic One-Hoss Shay'...<i>Speaking of Inflexible Unorganic One-Hoss Shay's... Quebec anyone?</i><br /><br />What about it? Quebec transformed from a religious, autocratic, mostly agrarian society to a secular, liberal, urban one in just a few decades.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.com